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Thursday, Jan. 31, 11:00 a.m., Would you become an engineer again? For many of us, the challenge of making things work and the thrill of seeing a design come to life is what drew us into design. But the reality of design is filled with frustration as markets and management impose limits and conditions on what we are able to do and how. Knowing what you know now, would you enter the profession again (or recommend it to your children)? Tell us why or why not.

bye jk. glad you could make it

Bye DB,RQ,CC,BB and others, Have a good day.

thanks for coming all

Good chatting with you all today. I've got to go now.

They are visible under all lighting conditions. LEDs are there to stay. Nowadays, we have high and super brightness LEDs with low power consumption

Of course, with good LCD controllers built in, today's readable LCDs and good backlights, there may not be a place for LEDs much longer.

certainly the fact they generate their own light is a benefit

RQ, products where long distance visibility is important such as in industries use LED 7s. I could see almost 75 temperature controllers in a single plant making tyres.

Rich - Text LCDs are probably more popular but in places where power consumption isn't an issue, I would see LEDs still having a place.

Are seven segment LEDs really all that popular? They are power hungry compared to LCD

With this facility, the mcu would be a darling as I remember reading somewhere that 65% of electronic products in the world have a LED 7 seg display.

Probably with a brightness adjustment by way of PWM on the common pins

JK - that would be useful too. I've seen a few MCUs with LCD drivers, but I don't recall any with seven segment LED drivers

multiplexed seven segment LED display implementations directly.

DB - sure, I would also be interested in multiplexed seven segment implementations directly.

Interesting suggestions. I may make a flash poll asking folks what features they want to see in generic MCUs based on this.

JK - I'd like to see switch debounce in more mainstram MCUs. It seems such an obviouse feature to have

DB, HW switch debounce is already available in renesas mcus in key board interrupts, if I am right.

EMC/EMI based hardware pin orientations and probably built in filters to analog inputs

For my care-abouts, I'd say:  generalize the MCUs -- specialize the code libraries and provide application-specific peripheral processors that require minimal code to implement a specific function. 

And hardware switch de-bounce

Rich - Security. Yes, hardware security would be a valuable add in.

Would like to see more programmable functions. Something for state machines, programmable peripherals, etc. all would be good mainstream functions.

I'd like to see security and tamper detection, especially for IoT applications

RTCs would be a nice mainstream addition too.

Rich - More bus protocols, floating point math

Interesting polarization.

Any specific features of specialized MCUs folks would like to see become mainstream?

Specialized MCUs are the way to go! Expect more and more as suppliers 'carve out' more focused segments.

For applications such as toys, house hold appliances, it would make sense to have specialty mcus as the volume is higher and hence justifies the cost.

Rich - In general, would like to see MCUs with broader featuers sets to cover a broader set of applications. I can see justification for specialized MCUs, but only in really high volume/low margin or in highly regulated environments.

I would love to have specialised mcus but do not think it would be a highlight for sometime.

DB, We are developing medical devices for Dialysis, Breast Cancer, etc. Designing easier compared to adherence to standards

So, before time runs out, guys, quick poll. Would you like to see more specialized MCUs (with the attendant tool and learning curve options) or are they a niche that will not become the norm?

Maybe I can get Mark Kraeling to talk about safety design standards in one of his blogs

JK - Ah. I don't know of any design standards either. The manufacturing standards cover repeatability, lot tracing and things of that sort.

I recall cirrus logic had an audio specialised mcu

especially hardware part

@curt, no I would leave business model out of it. The vendors business model has no impact on design, really.

DB, I was talking about design part.

JK - Medical has a number of standards. There is a manufacturing standard that would apply. I don't recall the standard number off the top of my head

ISO14971 which is risk management standard combined with FMEA and IEC62304 makes sturdy medical devices

And then their's business model specialization too --eg.  fabless vs. fabbed MCU makers.  If that's an admissible dimension of specialization, ARM would constitute a huge step toward MCU (design and development) specialization.

But everything which is risk management applies to it

Medical, as far as I know, does not have any specific standard for hardware

I think that's wherre the specialization is more likely to be finacially viable - in the consumer space because of the volumes.

@curt, specialized peripheral mix is kind of a half step toward specialization in my book

RQ, can u explain ur question pls

JK - I was semi-joking by using refriderator as my example, but it does make sense.

#jk, same one as for medical?

renesas and freescale and those pass iec60730 which is a safety standard for household appliances

The IOT will likely bring opportunity for more specialized MCUs.

jk makes a good point.  Is peripheral mix specialization enough to brand something a "specialized MCU"?

@jk, I think you're right, but more specialized MCUs seem to arrive each month. Makes me wonder if thats where much of the innovation is going these days

DB, freescale has refrigerator mcus

@duane, perhaps not refridgerator, but there do seem to be appliance MCUs trying to emerge

DB,

I guess majority of designers stick with general mcus with specialised features instead of dedicated specialty mcus

@duane, I have seen things that specialize in power measurement. For these smart meters eveeryone seems to want

Would there ever be a "refridgerator MCU"?

ah, thanks jk.

What about more mainstream uses for specialized MCUs. Medical, aviation and things like that pretty much require specialized products, but are there more regular applications that will benefit from specializeation?

60730

Renesas RX series complies to IEC60730

@jk, which one is for hardware?

IEC62304 is for the medical devices software life cycle

With the IoT, safety and security will become frequent needs

Think such features will become mainstream, tho?

BB, so that would fall into my definition of a specialty MCU

Microsemi SmartFusion devices have several specialized functions for safety and security. These are more FPGA than MCU but include things like SECDED on memory buffers for peripherals, root of trust security features for protecting code and IP, hardware for many encryption standards, zeroization for tamper protection- a very long list of features you don;t typically see on 'regular' MCUs.

so, yes, special packaging. but then you dont put a bare board in the body. the enclosure has to be special. teflon and titanium arent as subject to rejection as other things

@curt, not only corrosive, but active. We wall off foreign objects, and blood gets into even hermetically sealed spaces (cuz it wiggles and squirms in a way water doesnt)

@duane, changes require recertification, typically

Probably need specialized packaging too?  Are our bodies a corrosive environment?  Bet so.

jk, how odd. are you using Control-Z to recover lost messages? Or copy and paste in a retry until it goes thru

Medical devices need a long life span too. Some of the certification requirements require no changes for a long time.

@duane, folks are proving that they are hackable, to. recently someone hacked an insulin pump

What's a sixer jk?

re: stack overflow - You probably don't want your medical devices to be easily hackable either.

Oooo -- good point Duane.  We forgot all about all of the infrastructure specialization -- FCC approvals, traceability...   Big bucks.

@duane, folks are doing that for automotive safety

lol@curts remark

Medical applications need high reliability and traceability. That could be considered a form of customization - not custom in feature set, but in reliability

Not sure.  But if the stack overflows in your pacemaker, you're going to have a very bad day.

@curt, what kinds of specialization would you see needed in medical apps?

I think medical apps. would perhaps justify specialized architectures too, exp. implanted. 

@jk, interesting. no not familiar with the part at all. does it seem to target specific applications?

Rich - I'm looking at the datasheet. It does have a few latches along with the gates so that does add in a bit more possiblities thatn I was thinking.

@jk, sap?

Curt, the lockstep cores for auto safety and the security features in things for banking applications are examples of high liability areas

@Rich- that would be a good topic. Identify a few example applications where a small amount of programmable logic would provide big benefits. Maybe I could take a stab at creating a discussion thread...

Tolerant process.

I'd think specialized MCUs might be targetted at high-liability markets as well, where legal considerations drive specialized approaches.

Duane, the logic could be used to form complex trigger conditions I'd bet

oh, ok. BB. Might make a good blog topic for someone. what to do wht that programmable logic on your MCU

Rich, BB - The Microchip part that I have doesn't have enough logic or the right type of logic to put a statemachine into. It really looks more like just something that could help with glue logic.

Curt, are the rad hard MCUs designed for fault tolerance, or simply constructed using a tolerant process?

@Rich- yep so far just glue. Not a big step to create some simple state machines though. For example, wake-up/shut-down control with external devices would be very nice to put in a simple state machine.

What's a sixer jk?  Cricket term?

jjk, no not familiar with it. whats its specialty

BibBucket - I have one of the Microchip MCUs with a small numer of programmable (or as they call it, "configurable") logic. I haven't done anything with it yet. 

BB, I thought that the programmable was just for the glue logic

Curt - Maybe that's one of the few viable places to put pspecialized MCUs

hi curt

The uchip MCUs with programmabke logic are an interesting trend. Just a small amount of logic so far but could pave the way for more complex state machines to offload simple CPU functions.

hi bb, jk

Hi guys

I haven't gone the DSC route. Right now what I'm doing just doesn't need that kind of precision. At some point, I want to try a two-wheel balancing robot and I expect that will beed some good floating point math. I'd like to build a flying fobot someday too. That would need DSC capabilities.

There are also opportunities for specialized MCUs for high temperature & radiation tolerance.  But the market is high $ and low volumes = government/space.

Hi Rich, Hi Duane- I'm logging in a bit late. Interesting chat topic 2day.

yes, tune the MCU slightly to give an edge in an app, but not customize so much it shuts out other uses.

so, have you looked into any of those digital signal controller MCUs? They're for precision motor control, many of them, with libraries to support. Or does your motor control not need that?

Semi-custom MCUs might be a practical trend. I've seen some MCUs that are described by their manufacturere as being targeted at motor control , even though they could easily be used for many other applications.

true enough. Not a lot of margin there. and mask costs these days are astronomical

It just seems that with MCUs that have pretty full featurer priced in the $1.00 range, there isn't a lot of margin availble to make customization profitable, unless, as you say, there's a very large market.

for a specialty MCU to be worth the development cost, though, there has to be a big market.

Maybe in the higher end MCU segment, where costs are higher, we'll be seeing more customization.

Like automatic transmission was for cars. Once rare, now standard

ADCs were once a rarity, but now are almost standard. maybe those features will become standard, too

Some of the newer Microchip parts have bits of programmable logic added in, a lot have touch pad capability. The LPC800 line from NXP has remappable pins. Both of those examples would indiccate a trend away from specialization, at least in the low end.

maybe one day all MCUs will have DSP. And touch. and hardware security with tamper detection. and dual lockstep cores with error detect hardware.

what seem like specialty features today could simply be trial features to see what will make it to mainstream MCUs

Of course, what I see as a trend could be going the other way

I could see the industry moving toward specialty MCUs, but I could also see the opposite. It seems that silicon is getting cheap enough that MCU vendors are putting broader featuer sets in more MCUs these days. That would run counter to specialization.

I wonder how much cost that touch capability adds to the MCU

Good point about touch capability. Now that I think aboout it, several of the MCUs I am using now have the capability but I just never use it myself.

Some MCUs from Renesas meet that definition. Those with lockstep dual cores, for instance

Anyway, I am wondering if these specialty devices will become the norm in new product definitions

Do MCUs from Renesas meet your specialty definition? I know virtually nothing about Renesas but I understand that as a company, they have a lot of product designe for the automotive market.

yes, thats how folks are defining a dsc

given how common touch is becoming as a UI, though, it almost seems like its becoming a mandatory interface instead of specialized

Just to clarify, "digital signal controler" is a device that has features of both an MCU and a DSP. Is that correct?

But its only a small deviation from generality. still, it does tend to put that MCU out of contention for many applications

touchpad functionality does tend to tune an MCU, so its somewhere on the scale

All can be used mor generally, but thats true of any Turing Machine

So, do you mean like, for example, something with touch pad functionality, or more specific than that?

Digital signal controllers come to mind, as do safety and security MCUs

This sounds like an interesting subjecct today.

What I am calling specialty MCUs are those with features or peripheral sets tuned for a specific application

Ah, good morning. I was posting a generic when you beat me to the punch

That's a very good point.

Probably the first thing we should do is define what makes for a specialty MCU. Since we havent been able to agree on what makes an MCU, it might be moot

Good morning fellow MCCers

The days of trying to differentiate an MCU from its competitors by being faster, smaller, or more power efficient appear to be waning. Instead MCU vendors seem to be turning their creativity toward making MCUs that target specific application spaces. Do you agree, and what do you think about this trend?